Episode 3 – Choosing Schools

Speaker 1 (00:08):

Welcome to Loop Me in. The podcast community for parents and carers on raising children with disabilities. Join presenters, Doctor Lisa Interligi and Kristine Christopoulos and their guests on sharing experiences, information and support ideas to help children with disabilities flourish. Loop Me In is brought to you weekly on platforms like Apple Podcast, Spotify and Stitcher to name a few. You can learn more, connect with the Loop Me In community and listen to more episodes on our website, loop-me-in.com.au.

Kristine Christopoulos (00:43):

Hi Sara, welcome to our podcast. Lisa and I have children with a disability. They’re both 20 now and we are very keen to talk about choosing the right school for children with a disability. I’ve come across you through my daughter who worked under you at Noah’s Ark. Where you were a team leader there for over 10 years.

Sara (01:15):

Thank you so much for inviting me. It’s a real pleasure. Looking forward to having a bit of a chat about what my experience has taught me and also, I’m sure you two as parents, have a lot to contribute to this conversation.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (01:29):

Yeah, definitely. It was one od the biggest decisions, I think that at least I faced, and my husband I faced with Louis as to where to send him. We had an older child who went to school but we didn’t really know what the implications of the decision that we were going to make had and what were the right criteria and how did we know what he was capable of and there was so many unknowns, so it was a very stressful time.

Sara (01:59):

Mm. That’s something that a lot of parents report. I think that’s a very common experience and an unfortunate one. But hopefully together we can come up with some tips and pointers that are going to help families through that process. But I think it’s really interesting that you mentioned that you have another child that you sent to school and you didn’t agonize over it quite so much. I think that’s a really interesting point because many of the things that I think we should be considering with children with additional needs, they’re not necessarily completely different issues to typically developing children.

Think many of the things that you want to think about are around location and access to schools. The philosophy of the particular school you’re looking at and how that matches with your philosophy and that of your family. Classroom size and the access to resources. Schools are increasingly getting larger and larger, and is that the right fit for your child? Do you want your kids to go to the same school or is it okay that your kids go to different schools. I think there’re things that possibly families should be thinking about in relation to any child. But they’ve become even more important considerations when you’re talking about a child with additional needs.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (03:25):

Yeah definitely.

Kristine Christopoulos (03:28):

Yeah I think you’re right there, Sara. Especially on the school size as well. I think when we were looking at Matthew going to a mainstream setting, we were looking at obviously location, but B, we were looking at the size of the school to see whether he could cope in a little school of maybe 110 people as opposed to a big state school of 1,000.

Sara (03:57):

I think that is one of the biggest changes over the last couple of decades, is the size of schools, that they are increasingly becoming very large. That has an impact on lots of kids but when you’re talking about a child with additional needs, they’re not necessarily going to do well in a playground where there are 500 kids at the same time. I’m not sure that typically developing children necessarily do well in such a large playground but that’s a really big issue. I guess also class sizes. They are to a certain extent, limited by the department of education but when you’re talking about a special education setting, usually those classrooms are sort of maximum 10 kids. Where a mainstream setting could be anywhere up to 30 children in a classroom, and how is your child going to manage that?

Dr. Lisa Interligi (04:59):

Yeah, I think when we were looking around, we didn’t know whether Louis would be able to fit and learn in a mainstream school or a special needs school, and that was kind of our big decision point, given his development and his diagnosis. So, really before you even get to that, for me it was around is it a mainstream setting that I should be looking at or is it something that is more tailored to his circumstance. So, what are some of the things that you suggest that parents should think about when they’re considering those decisions?

Sara (05:43):

I think the more information you have, the better and I definitely think this is a very overwhelming topic for parents. But there isn’t enough information out there, so basically in Australia, you’ve got two main choices in terms of, are you looking at a state school which could be mainstream or a special school setting? Or are you looking at an independent school which could be the Catholic school system or some other school? They have completely different funding programs and what they will support and how they support are very different. But most families with children with additional needs are going to pick the state school system. So, I think it’s probably best to keep our discussion really looking at that kind of system.

One of the things that many families don’t realize is that the vast majority of cases, if your child qualifies for funding under the [inaudible 00:06:51] school system in a mainstream school, they qualify to go to a special school. Most parents don’t realize that, they think, “Oh, my child isn’t, for want of a better word, bad enough to go to a special school setting.” That’s not the case. If your child qualifies for funding, they qualify to attend a special school setting. So, I think then I would be looking at, what is the major difference between the two settings and aside from size and location that we’ve talked about, the really big difference is their approach to education and what they teach.

The mainstream schools have a big focus on academic learning and learning for life, so that’s probably the system that most of us went through. We’re probably [inaudible 00:07:42] familiar with that. A special school system has much more of a focus on learning of life skills. So yes, you need to learn how to count but why do you need to learn how to count? You need to learn how to count so you can manage money, so that you can work out how many apples to need to buy this week. So, their focus is much more about what are the skills that children need to leave the education system with in order to be as independent as possible in the community.

Where, as many of us would’ve learnt, our mainstream settings, they didn’t teach you how to set up a bank account or how to manage a budget or how to read a train timetable and catch the train. So, I think that would be my point of greatest consideration for them. [inaudible 00:08:39] is what is it that your child really needs to learn in order to function successfully in society? If those things are much more around life skills and independence and need to be directly taught those skills, a special school setting might be a better option.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (09:01):

Yeah, how do you know that at four or five? I guess that what you don’t want to do as a parent is limit your child and so it is about what is their learning potential and how do you know? I guess from our point of view, we went through assessments and that’s kind of how we got that funding allocated through application. But so, what tips could you give parents around, I don’t know, how do you know what the potential of the child is?

Kristine Christopoulos (09:41):

Mm.

Sara (09:42):

That’s such a good and challenging question and one that as an [inaudible 00:09:49] health professional, I get a lot. We don’t have crystal balls and we can’t give any parent any definitive answers. But we certainly should be aiming to give families support around what our professional experience tells us about children similar to yours.

Kristine Christopoulos (10:12):

Mm.

Sara (10:14):

A big part, you talked about assessments, part of the process for school assessments is a cognitive assessment. So, we’re looking at the thinking skills of children and what their capacity is. So, that will result in an IQ number and we sincerely hope the psychologist who does that assessment can give you some more feedback about what that number means in a real life setting. But if your child has an intellectual disability, what that’s telling us is that they are going to find learning more challenging than a typical child. They’re going to learn at a slower rate and they might not be able to learn as extensively as some other children.

So, that’s something to really think about and I guess, so if your child receives an IQ score of below 70, they are eligible to attend a special school setting. I guess, if you’re eligible to attend those settings, then I think that’s really sort of telling me something within itself. That your child is going to need quite a bit of extra support. That doesn’t mean that mainstream is ruled out but it means that if you are looking at mainstream, you want to be asking some really targeted questions about what kind of supports are you going to offer my child. Because they’re not going to cope well sitting by themselves in a classroom without any extra support.

Kristine Christopoulos (11:55):

Mm. That’s exactly right. I don’t know whether the testing has changed but I remember Matthew’s IQ was quite low. I did look at the local Catholic school and to look at maybe getting an aid. The aid said to me, “We can’t possibly teach him in the classroom the way he would want to be taught, needs to be taught.”

Sara (12:22):

Mm.

Kristine Christopoulos (12:22):

I think you’re exactly right. I think that IQ, as hard as it is as a parent to get that number, it does really identify whether they can learn in a mainstream setting or not.

Sara (12:38):

That was one of the things that, in preparing for our discussion, I was thinking about. What would be my top tips and one of them would be that if you are looking at a mainstream setting, to really talk to them about what supports they can offer. Lots of parents assume that their child is going to get a one-on-one aid in the classroom. It’s really important to understand that that’s not a given. The school has discretion about how they choose to use the funding and it’s extremely rare for a child to receive enough funding to have a one-on-one aid all the time that they’re at school.

So, chances are that there is going to be some time where your child is not supported with an extra assistant in the classroom and what schools try to do to alleviate that issue, is they’ll tend to pair a couple of children who receive funding in the same classroom. So, there is an aid in the classroom the whole time but they might be supporting two or three children. Not just your child. The difference being, if you’re going to a special school setting, there is always multiple educators in a classroom with less children. So the ratio for a special school setting is usually 2 students to one educator.

In a mainstream setting it could be anywhere up to 15 students to one. So, by all means explore mainstream settings and every school does it differently, some are really clever with how they work the funding and maximize it, but I think you need to go into that discussion understanding that it’s not going to be someone that sits with your child one-one-one, teaching them individually for every single moment of their time [inaudible 00:14:36].

Dr. Lisa Interligi (14:38):

Sara, can you tell me, because one of the other things that was a consideration for us was around social connection and having relationships. Because at least for me, a healthy life is that you have the ability to make connections and have friends and relationships. How do you think that plays out for kids who have special needs?

Sara (15:08):

You’re absolutely right in saying that that is a fundamental thing in life and a human right. Children and adults with additional needs want social connections just as much as anybody else does. We need to foster that in a way that is most appropriate for them. So, there are pros and cons to both school settings, that mainstream school settings are often a really good choice for those children that are really social but also sort of bit borderline on the intellectual disability front. Because they will be challenged to grow emotionally through their peers.

Where, for some parents, the complaint about special school settings is that many of the children in that setting also have social impairments and that means that their child isn’t necessarily getting the social engagement that they really need. But conversely, think about what it must be like for children sitting in a setting that everybody else is talking about things that are not of interest to you or things that you don’t understand. Over time, that’s going to create a really big barrier to your social engagement.

So, I guess that would be something I would also consider about choosing a school setting and it might be one of the big factors that you consider around starting in one setting and transitioning to another. So I have worked really closely with a number of families that have started in mainstream settings because of that social aspect but have recognized that at a certain point, this is going to cognitively get beyond my child and that, then is going to be frustrating and have a really big impact on my child’s wellbeing.

But for the first couple of years of school it’s actually going to be a real positive to be with other children that are outgoing, have great social skills, are going to push my child to develop appropriate social skills.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (17:38):

What are the challenges in doing that transition?

Kristine Christopoulos (17:41):

Mm.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (17:42):

Going from one setting to another setting.

Sara (17:46):

What a good question and I’ve certainly seen children go both directions. From mainstream to special schools and children go from a special setting into a mainstream setting. So-

Kristine Christopoulos (17:57):

Oh, wow. I’ve never heard that one. So you-

Sara (17:59):

… yeah, it does happen.

Kristine Christopoulos (18:01):

… okay. Yeah.

Sara (18:03):

Particularly more often happens to children on the autism spectrum who need some really specific targeted support around developing certain skills and once they’ve learnt those skills, they are ready to transition into a more mainstream setting. But it’s probably more typical to be mainstream into a special school setting. Some of the things to consider around that is special schools work in a different way to a mainstream setting in terms of when you finish school. So, in a mainstream setting, you start in prep, you go to grade one, grade two, et cetera and you go all the way up to year 12 or [inaudible 00:18:51] there about.

In a special school setting, you don’t transition quite in the same way. It’s more about where your skillset is at. So, the department of education and training funds children to attend special schools until they are 18. So, you leave school at the age of 18 regardless of where your skillset is. So, that means in theory, if you start special school later, you get less time in that setting. So some special schools will really discourage families from doing say a second year of kinder or from doing time in a mainstream school because it means you get less time in the special school setting.

I can certainly see the point around that but I think every child is different and the right decision for you and your family shouldn’t just be based on those figures on the page and that your child’s going to be exited from school at 18. For most kids, I’m not sure whether one or two years in a mainstream setting really has that much impact. If that’s the right setting for them, then they’re still going to be learning things and developing until they transition into a special school setting. If they’re not learning anything, then it’s probably not the right stop for them anyway and you would be transitioning them to special school sooner.

So, I don’t think there’s a hard and fast answer about that. But I do think you need to be aware that there are consequences in terms of the end process of education about when your child will have to leave school.

Kristine Christopoulos (20:41):

Is more difficult, Sara, to explain these decisions with the parent?

Sara (20:48):

Absolutely. I think as both of you have highlighted, this was a really emotional process for you and I think we need to acknowledge having a child with additional needs is emotionally challenging and not just once. It happens over and over and over again, and transition periods, whether it’s starting school, finishing school, having their first relationship, all of those things, sadly, are challenges for families with a child with an additional need. I can completely appreciate how confronting it can be to have some of these discussions about coming to terms with the fact that your child may not have the same breadth of opportunities that a typically developing child has.

If your child has in intellectual disability, they’re not going to be a neurosurgeon. But unfortunately that’s off the option list for your child and every parent wants their child to be able to do and be anything that that child wants to be. But that must be really hard to have someone say that. As professionals, we walk a very difficult line between being realistic and giving families realistic information about what they can expect for their child. But also, being hopeful, like I said, I don’t have a crystal ball, I can make an educated guess about what your child’s potential and future might be, but I could be wrong and it would be a huge disservice to you and your child not to give you every opportunity to learn new skills and develop things that I didn’t think that you were capable of.

So, as a professional this is a really difficult conversation for us to have and I think it’s not one that we’re necessarily great at doing. I think we need more training and support around that. Having two moms here who have been through this process is really valuable for me as a professional to be able to hear from the other side about what it was like to have these discussions or not. In some cases from professionals, what you found valuable about what you were told, what was confronting, heartbreaking, shattering, what was brushed over and confusing and all a bit mandy-pandy and far too nice and you walked out, going, “I don’t know what they were talking about.”

So, think that from you as parents is really valuable to us but it is a really fraught and emotional discussion and I think we need to be prepared for the fact it’s going to be an emotional discussion.

Kristine Christopoulos (24:16):

I think you’re right. I think it’s also, as parents, you do have certain times of your child’s life where you’re confronted with it again. So, for example, when Matthew was going into school, realizing that Matthew had to go a special school even know we knew he had an intellectual disability at the age of two, was so confronting. Then obviously on the journey going into other areas, like obviously Matthew can’t drive and he needs carers to get around 24/7.

So I think you’re right and that one’s probably the most important because you’re almost saying, “Okay, my child’s got a disability and that’s why they’re going to a special setting.” It’s a huge decision. I know it was for us. We thought about doing what you mentioned before, is starting in the mainstream sector and moving out but the advice we got was similar to what you said before on how he would miss out on so much by not being in the special setting from an early age.

Sara (25:21):

There is increasingly a push from government and society for inclusion of people with additional needs into mainstream settings. So, there is, I think, a bit of social stigma attached to special school settings. My personal experience is that for some children, a special school setting is the right place for them to be. If it’s going to be the place where they get the support to maximize their potential, then that’s a place we should be sending those children.

Within your typical mainstream classroom, there is about a 10 year gap in the ability of the lowest performing child and the highest performing child. So, I take my hat off to teachers to be able to support those children. The reality is that all of those children are probably not getting the support that they truly need just because of teacher/student ratios. Are you doing your child a disservice by adding to that. I think for some children, mainstream is absolutely the right choice. But for many I think a special school is a better option and as parents, you need to try and put aside the emotional aspect of that and your own feelings about acknowledging that your child is at a special school and thinking about really what does this school offer that is well-fitted to my child, and what isn’t a good fit for my child.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (27:17):

I think that’s absolutely right. One of the things I was lucky enough to be able to do, Sara, was to engage in education specialist. Which I know a lot of families aren’t able to do. But it was just such a problematic decision. I went round and talked to the schools that I had enrolled my son in and said on the basis of the advice that I got from this specialist, to ask what support that the schools were able to give him, and at the end of the day, I just felt he would get lost. We had similarly done assessments and I think that the recommendation by the specialists that we had, the psychologists and people that we had, early intervention, had recommended that he go to a special school.

But even within that, there was a decision about that special school and what special school. To do that was really about knowing how your child learnt and what made them happy in some ways. We settled on arts-based school.

Sara (28:20):

[inaudible 00:28:21]. Sorry?

Dr. Lisa Interligi (28:20):

We settled on an arts-based and music school, like in Port Philip that really used art therapy and music because he loved that. So, we ended up finding a place that I think really fit him as a person and really helped him develop, not only in learning, but also social. He’s made some very great friends that he can continues to have today. Which is very valuable to him.

Sara (28:54):

That’s so fantastic to hear. I think from what you’ve just said, is that you’ve really put his needs first and really thought about what are his interests, his skillset and what school is going to best suit that. I think you’ve hit the nail on the head that it’s not just mainstream versus special school, but which individual school and the special schools are very different. They’re not all the same. There are special schools out there that only work with children with specific conditions. Particularly there are autism-specific schools in all areas of Victoria.

But also, about what kind of programs they offer and their philosophy towards teaching and inclusion of families in that process. It sounds such a nebulous thing to say but I think the vibe of the school is such an important thing. If you visit a school, and you absolutely must do that, I realize COVID fared some challenges, but if it’s remotely an option you need to visit a school. If you walk away, I had a parent recently say to me, “If you walk away and feel like you’ve just been given a big warm hug, you know that that’s a good place for you and your child. If you walk away feeling a little bit uncomfortable, your gut’s telling you something.”

Kristine Christopoulos (30:27):

Mm. I agree with you. I think you need to spend time, even in these special school settings to find the school that will suit your child because, for example, Matthew is a very social child and a couple of the schools I looked at were very individualized. So there wasn’t a lot of interacting with the other kids because those kids just didn’t want that. I just knew that would be horrible for Matthew. Because all he wanted was to sit and talk to friends. So, when we did find this small little special school in Ormond, I left there going, “Okay, well this is where Matthew needs to come.”

Sara (31:06):

Mm.

Kristine Christopoulos (31:08):

Yeah very important to look at that. So, what should we be looking out for as parents when we are looking at special schools? Obviously you look at location because that’s obviously the most important thing for a lot of families.

Sara (31:24):

Mm.

Kristine Christopoulos (31:25):

If you are Autistic for example, should you be going to an Autistic school? Or is it more than that when you’re looking for a school?

Sara (31:35):

I think it’s all the things that we’ve discussed. In terms of autism-specific schools, they tend to be very good at targeting the specific skillset are strengths for kids with autism and minimizing the things that are often weaknesses. The downside is particularly around those social skills, that if you struggle with social skills and building friendships, the last thing you need to be is spending all your time around [inaudible 00:32:11] so have a lot of trouble with those things. So, that’s a big downside of autism-specific schools, is that those kids don’t get good role models of their social skills. So, that could be a really good reason to choose a more generalized special school setting. Is because those kids in that setting are going to have such a diverse range of needs, that there will be kids that will be great role models for those skills.

In terms of my top tips, I would strongly suggest that families visit a range of schools. I realize that zoning has increasingly become a thing within the education world and in some areas it is harder than others to get into a school that’s not necessarily your local school. But I would still strongly suggest that you go and talk to a few different schools about what they offer and how they present their programs, that applies to special schools as much as mainstream schools. Really go in with a really targeted view about my child.

So, Kristine, you just talked about Matthew and him being so social, like you said, some schools where the other kids there aren’t very social, would not have been a great fit for Matthew and if you hadn’t had gone in with that mindset of Matthew needs socialization, you perhaps would’ve missed that.

Kristine Christopoulos (33:51):

That’s [inaudible 00:33:52].

Sara (33:51):

So, I’d potentially be sitting down and jotting down a couple of dot points. Whether it’s physically on paper or in my head about what are the things that I particularly need to match to my child’s needs and be asking really targeted questions about that. My child really likes to be able to access Lego and engages really well with other kids playing Lego. Do you have a Lego group? Could we set up a Lego group? So ask about what they’ve got and what their potential is to set up that program if they don’t already have it. I really encourage the parents to talk to other families that attend that school. They can give you lots of insider information. The schools are no different to any other service and word of mouth is really, really valuable and important and you quickly find the pros and cons of various schools.

If you’re talking about children with additional needs, I think support groups and other parents with kids with additional needs are a great resource. They might not have chosen the same school as you end up choosing but they’ll be able to help you with some of the things that were considerations for them and we don’t know what we don’t know. It’s really helpful to have someone say, “Ah, have you thought about,” so, talk to other parents.

I think be gentle on yourself and be realistic about what you can achieve. We’ve talked about location, we touched on that a number of times. The challenge around special schools is there are less of them than mainstream schools and that always involves some level of travel. Sometimes the ideal school for your child is the one that’s two and a half hours away. In the perfect world, we’ve love to send your child to that school but is that fair on you or your child to be doing that much travel? Can you keep that up? So, like everything in life, it’s about a compromise and you need to work out what is your top priorities and how important are the things on your list, and what are you willing to compromise on?

So, be realistic about what you can all achieve and like I said, be gentle on yourself. This is a tough process for any family. We do our best but it’s okay if you don’t get it right the first time. Lots and lots of kids change schools whether it’s because you’ve moved house and you live in a different area. But also because it wasn’t the right school for you and your family and that’s okay. You move on and try somewhere else. None of us would be encouraging moving from one school to another constantly but if you don’t get it right first pick, that’s all right. You did your best, you thought it was the right fit. But it’s not and you’ll keep trying and you’ll keep working until you do find the right fit.

Kristine Christopoulos (37:22):

Yeah, that’s exactly right. I wish I had someone like you around when I was making these decisions.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (37:27):

Me too.

Sara (37:30):

Thank you ladies, flattery is always appreciated.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (37:35):

So, if parents do want support for this decision [inaudible 00:37:40] and in addition to their parent network which is what we’re all about here, where else can they get info from?

Sara (37:51):

Look, absolutely talk to your LA health professionals and your support teams. So, your pediatrician, your GP. Psychologists are a really good support, because this is often their particular area that they work in. The department of education has some really great resources on their website about choosing schools and looking at schools for kids with additional needs. There’s also great information about funding and the complexity of that. So, there’s lots of information on their website about what the funding looks like and how you go through that process.

Your early years educators, your kinder teacher has the sane a million and one transition into school and they will know a lot about the various schools in your area. They will have seen a lot of kids with lots of different needs over the years and they will have great advice about what might be a good fit for you. The Raising Children network also has some great stuff on there. If you are looking at a child who has a specific condition, such as autism, the VMA’s website can be a great help. The Down Syndrome Victoria website has some great advice for children with down syndrome but I would also recommend having a look at that stuff if your child has an intellectual disability.

So, look at their resources that might be specific to your condition. But the internet is a great resource. But also be aware that there can be some interesting stuff out there. Always good to arm yourself with knowledge but just make sure that you’re getting it from a reputable source.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (40:01):

Great advice. I think that’s fantastic. Thank you so much for your time, we really appreciate the fact that you’ve had to sit in your car for this whole conversation to overcome the internet challenges that you’ve got. We really appreciate, it’s been really helpful I know, and sincerely we wish that we knew you definitely 15 years ago.

Kristine Christopoulos (40:27):

Yeah. That’s right. Thank-

Sara (40:33):

My absolute pleasure and if there’s anything I can help with at any other time, I’m most happy to do so. Some of the families that I’m now working with, I’ve got one mother in particular who’s very, very proactive and I’ve mentioned this series of podcasts and she’s like, “Oh, link me in. I want to contact them because I’ve got [inaudible 00:40:53] work.” So, it’s all about who you know and linking in with other networks.

So, if at any point I can be of assistance in any way, please let me know.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (41:04):

Thank you so much.

Kristine Christopoulos (41:04):

… Thank you so much, Sara, thank you.

Sara (41:07):

I’m also happy, I obviously have a job to do, but within reason if there are families that are really struggling with this and need to have a half an hour, hour chat with someone, I’m more than happy to have a chat with any family that wants to talk through some things.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (41:28):

Thanks Sara. That’s fantastic. Take care.

Sara (41:33):

Thank you very much ladies, have a lovely weekend.

Kristine Christopoulos (41:36):

Thank you.

Dr. Lisa Interligi (41:37):

[inaudible 00:41:37].

Speaker 1 (41:42):

Thanks for being a part of the Loop Me In community today and joining our conversation on raising children with disabilities. Join us for the next episode on some of your favorite platforms, like Spotify and Apple Podcast. If you would like to support us please recommend the Loop Me In podcast to your network of parents, carers and providers. If you would like us to cover a topic or invite a guest to chat, please email us at contact@loop-me-in.com.au or go to our website at loop-me-in.com.au. If you’ve got any feedback, please let us know so we can improve and cover issues you want.

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